Follow Limits

Read this message transcript from the "True to Real" message series

Pastor Matt Sturdevant: When you hear the word, “leader,” what’s the first image that comes to your mind? Perhaps it’s somebody standing on a stage somewhere, or maybe it’s the one who helped lead a team to accomplish a great task. Or, perhaps it’s someone who empowers and equips others and builds a bridge that others can cross so they can go further than they could go on their own. We all have some sort of image in our mind of what leadership is or what we think it should be. Especially with the season that we’re in right now, there’s a very important event coming up on Tuesday that has to do with leadership. 


John Maxwell says that “Leadership is influence.” He also says that “ a leader is the one who knows the way, goes the way, and shows the way.” John Quincy Adams said that “if your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more, and become more, you are a leader.” And, let’s not forget about the great management guru from Dunder Mifflin, Michael Scott. Michael Scott once said that “the word, ‘ship,’ is hidden inside the word, ‘leadership,’ as its...derivation.”


Depending on your past experiences, when you think about leaders and leadership, you may have positive or negative thoughts. Regardless of what sort of opinion or experience that you’ve had, all leaders have four basic tasks. The same goes for leaders in church, family, on the job, sports teams, in the military. All leaders have four basic tasks. I want to look at those with you as we begin. The first one is to set direction. Where are we going? It’s the leader’s job to set the direction on where we’re going. Then, start the group. Somebody’s got to start the group once the direction has been set and say, “Alright, let’s go!” 


Then, third, they keep the group on track. We’re all kind of squirrely in our own way, so we need to be kept on track. Finally, leaders report to those above. What were the results? Did we accomplish what we thought? How did we do? There’s a level of accountability. There’s no shortage of books, opinions, or ideas on leadership in our culture today. But as followers of Jesus Christ, we want to be concerned with what the Bible has to say about leadership, particularly spiritual leadership. 


We’re in a series of messages right now, called True to Real, where we’re taking a look at the Seven Heart Attitudes. They’re listed there at the top of your handout. A Heart Attitude is basically the angle of approach that we take to people or situations in life. It’s the mental or emotional preset, the default that we have. The Seven Heart Attitudes, the list there on your handout, are seven summary statements about what the Bible, particularly the New Testament, says about how we are to relate to one another individually and personally and then as a group and as a team and as a church. The first four focus more on individual relationships, and the last three are more about the group and the team. 


There’s a list there, again, in your handout, and today, we’re going to be looking at Heart Attitude number seven:  Follow spiritual leadership within Scriptural limits. When you look at the list of seven there at the top of your handout, last week Heart Attitude number six (Support the work financially) is often the hardest or maybe the most awkward for church members to hear. Well, I think this week, Heart Attitude number seven, can be the hardest or the most awkward for church leaders, particularly new lead pastors who are in their 168th day, to give. But, God’s Word speaks to all areas of life. My commitment to God and my commitment to you is that I’m going to look at what the Bible says in all of the different areas of life, regardless of whether it’s uncomfortable for you or uncomfortable for me or just uncomfortable for all of us. 


Leadership is actually one of the areas that God speaks in His Word, the Bible. I want you to know this message today is not about why you should follow me. In fact, I heard it said once that spiritual authority is something that if you have it, you don’t need to talk about it. If you don’t have it, then you shouldn’t talk about it. The truth is that leadership, particularly spiritual leadership, is an area that’s often misunderstood in our day and age. It’s often something that’s misunderstood for us as Westerners and Americans living in the year 2020. 


Here’s the approach I’d like to take today with our time. I want to begin with looking at some Biblical foundations for leadership and set the framework for our discussion. Then, I want to look at how we actually, practically practice this Heart Attitude at Hope Church. Then just like the rest of the weeks that we have been in this series, I want you to hear not just from me but from some of your fellow church members on what their experience has been with Heart Attitude number seven, things that God has taught them, and ways that they have grown and learned as they have practiced this Heart Attitude.


So, let’s jump right in with some Biblical foundations for leadership. Here’s the first one. God is the One who establishes authority and defines its jurisdictions. God’s the Creator of the universe. He’s the Ultimate Authority, and according to the Bible, He’s the One who hands out authorities in different realms. Romans 13:1-7 talks about this, and I want to look at Romans 13:1-2 with you here. It says, “Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.” 


We looked at this concept a few weeks ago in our Understanding the Times series, and the specific context that we looked at this verse I gave you something I’m calling the four primary stewardship spheres of society. You can see them there on the screen that there’s ourself, our family, our church, and the state. God established authority, and He’s the One who defines the jurisdiction or the limits or the boundaries. All leaders have limits on their authority, and their authority is actually tied to the jurisdiction. For example, each one of us is responsible for leading ourselves. I’m responsible for leading me, and you’re responsible for leading yourself. You’re not responsible for leading me. That’s not your jurisdiction. I’m not responsible for leading you personally. That’s outside of my jurisdiction. 


Here  is another example for you. Here’s a picture of my kids. As their father, I’m the one who has been given the authority to care for them, to train them, to discipline them. That’s within my jurisdiction as their father. My children are not within your jurisdiction for you to be the one to train and discipline them. The same thing goes for your children. As your pastor, you might ask me for some input on a situation with your children or maybe some input on actually disciplining your children, but that’s your job, not mine. It would be wrong for me; I would be stepping out of my jurisdiction if I came into your home and disciplined your children.


Another thing going on in the background is that God doesn’t think or act like we do. He just doesn't. God is God. He thinks very differently. Isaiah 55:8 says, “‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,’ declares the Lord.” So, God doesn’t think or act like we do. when it comes to leadership, particularly spiritual leadership, there may be some things that we just don’t know. We’ve never heard them, or maybe we’ve heard them, but they don’t quite make sense to us. Maybe they make sense to us, but we just don't like them. The job of a Christ-follower is to get on God’s page, not to try to get God on my page. 


Also, Christ-followers have been given a mission. Jesus, just before He left the planet and returned back to heaven, gave His followers a mission. He said, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…” So, we have a mission that’s been given by Jesus, and in order to accomplish that mission, leaders and followers must cooperate together. Let’s take a look at Ephesians 4:11-12. “And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ.” 


How are we supposed to work together? How are we supposed to cooperate? Well, God gave leaders, and He gave followers. The primary job of spiritual leaders is to equip. The primary job of the followers is to do the work of the ministry. This is why we have Heart Attitude number five and number six that we previously looked at. This is why we participate in the ministry and why we support the work financially. Leadership and spiritual leadership is a big responsibility. It is something that God takes very seriously and so we should take it very seriously. Take a look at Acts 20:28. This is something that was said to spiritual leaders in the early church. They are told “so guard yourselves and God’s people. Feed and shepherd God’s flock—his church, purchased with his own blood—over which the Holy Spirit has appointed you as leaders.”


Again, God is the One who gives leaders, and He appoints them in their leadership roles. God takes leadership very seriously, and in fact because He takes it so seriously, He gives us some limits and some standards. Let’s take a look at those limits and standards. As you read through the Bible, particularly in the New Testament, you’ll find a couple of passages that give lists of qualifications for different types of leaders. I’m not going to read those whole passages to you now, but 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 are great places to see the lists of the qualifications for different types of spiritual leaders. You can read that on your own. In fact, I’d encourage you to read that on your own.


What we find in the list is a summary. Here's the summary. The standards for spiritual leadership are high character and proven skill. In order to be a spiritual leader, one must have high character. That’s what we find in a lot of those lists when you read them—character qualities. Not just high character, you don’t want to have somebody who has really high character, but they don’t have any skill. You want to have both high character and proven skill. Does the leader have skill to do the job that needs to be done. Those are the standards, but what about limits? What are the limits on leadership?


The limits look like this. You don't follow a leader when the leader is doing wrong. If a leader is doing wrong, we just don’t follow him. Romans 16:17-19 says, “I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil.”


It’s really important to note here when we talk about not following a leader who is doing wrong is that just like with Heart Attitude number three—Giving and receiving Scriptural correction—-we correct for matters of sin not matters of preference. You might not like the shirt that I have on right now, but I don’t need to be Scripturally corrected because it’s not a sin to wear this shirt. It’s just my preference to wear it. When it comes to not following a leader, we don’t follow them into sin. We don’t follow them into violating Scripture, but preference is not a Scriptural reason for not following a legitimate leader. 


In fact when a spiritual leader makes a decision that is not out of bounds Scripturally but is just a decision that you disagree with, that’s the very moment when Heart Attitude number seven has a chance to move from true to real. Right now we’re talking about it. It’s true, but when you have to make that choice that you actually have to disagree with a decision that a leader made, now you have the opportunity to really put it into practice. Here’s the thing. If you just agree with every decision that a leader is making, you’re not really following them. You’re just walking in the same direction. So, we don’t follow a leader who is doing wrong.


We also don’t follow a leader who is outside of his or her jurisdiction. Every follower of Christ has direct access to the Lord Jesus Himself. There are all kinds of things that you, as a follower of Christ, have to decide you’re going to do. It’s probably wise to get some input and counsel on some of those, but you have to decide what you are going to do before the Lord. Make the decision, and then do it. Then, live with the consequences. The consequences are simply results. We can have good consequences, and we can have negative consequences. There are things that you’ve got to make the choice; you’ve got to make the decision to live with the consequences.


As your pastor, I can’t tell you who to specifically marry, what specific job to take, or where to specifically move, whether in town or out of town. But what we can talk about, what’s within my jurisdiction, is to talk about what the Bible says about how to make those kinds of decisions. Some spouses, jobs, or houses might be out of bounds or unwise for you, but again, it’s your choice to make, not mine. In my jurisdiction as your pastor, it’s to help you understand what God’s Word is. I can’t tell you what to do. I can help you understand God’s Word, but you have to decide. It's within your jurisdiction. If I start telling church members what to do in these areas that are outside my jurisdiction, then I’m leading outside of the limits that I have.


The third limit that we don’t do is we don't follow a leader when they can’t be trusted. If a spiritual leader has a proven track record lacking character or skill or they are operating outside the Scriptural bounds and have shown they can’t be trusted, don’t follow them. If they’ve proven they can’t be trusted, it’s not wise to trust them. Even the Bible warns us about this. It says in 2 Corinthians 11:13: “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.” There are some leaders, some spiritual leaders, who are not trustworthy and who should not be trusted. 


I know for some who may be newer around Hope Church, you may just be checking things out. We understand it takes people some time to see if we can be trusted. That’s a normal thing. Maybe you had a bad church experience in the past or you’re just new to Hope Church and are kind of feeling your way forward, saying, “Are these people that I can trust?” That’s normal. We expect it. We know it takes time. That’s one of the reasons that we have our Start Here Experience. This is a four-week experience that we have where you have an opportunity to get to know us better as a church. We have an opportunity to get to know you better, as well. You can learn things like, “What’s our mission? What are our values? What are we trying to accomplish? What strategies are we using?” You can get to know who we are and what we are all about. That’s what the Start Here Experience is created for. 


If you’re new around Hope and you’ve never been to a Start Here Experience, I want to invite you to join us today. One happens every week, every Sunday. There’s an in-person one you can attend, or you can attend one online later in the afternoon. If you're learning more and you want to find out if this is a group we can trust, I’d invite you and encourage you to be a part of the next Start Here.


Spiritual leadership has standards. It has limits, and unless the leader is unqualified in character and skill or is operating outside of those limits,we choose to follow legitimate leaders thoughtfully and aggressively. Our key verse for Heart Attitude number seven is Hebrews 13:17. It’s our memory verse this week, and I want to read it for you now. It says, “Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.” In our culture today, in America, we tend to bow up when we hear words like, “obey” and “submit.” We want to be rugged individuals, and we want to be autonomous individuals. We don’t want to obey anybody or submit to anyone. We're not talking about blindly following leaders that we shouldn’t be following.


It’s okay to raise questions. It’s okay to make sure you understand what the leader’s saying, to clarify. “I heard you say this… Is this right?” Or, I heard you say this and maybe there’s an appropriate time to offer some input. The idea behind the word, “obey,” is to be equally persuaded. Don’t be stubborn. It’s okay to ask questions, but when the leader gives an explanation and explains to you the answer of your question, be easily persuaded. Don’t blindly or naively follow a wrong leader into sin, but also don’t bow up and say, “Well, you’ve got to convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt that your way is better than mine!” That’s the opposite of what this verse is talking about. This goes back to the sin vs. preference thing that I mentioned earlier. 


We never follow a leader into doing sin, but we also don’t push, as a follower, our way/our preference if the leader’s leading in a different direction that’s not outside of the bounds of Scripture. Also with that verse, the idea behind the word, “submit,” is to yield the right of way. It’s kind of like a wrestler who gets in a hold and taps out. When we are disagreeing over matters of preference, go ahead and submit to the leader. Again, it’s okay to ask questions to get clarification, to raise issues or concerns when it’s appropriate. But when there’s actually the time that we’re going to make the decision and move forward now, you submit, and you yield to your leader’s direction. Don’t be the one hanging back trying to pull the group in your direction. The decision has been made. You have shared your opinion and asked your questions. Submit, and follow.


Before we go any further in talking about Heart Attitude number seven, I want you to hear from some folks here at Hope Church. I want you to learn about their experiences of what it has looked like for them to follow spiritual leadership within Scriptural limits. (Video begins)


Libby Coker:  “That was not really something that was modeled to me growing up, following your husband as your leader. It was just more that I have very strong, independent women in my family, and that was how they modeled and operated. Yes, they were married to their husbands, but if they wanted to do something one way, well, they’re the woman of the house. A happy wife is a happy life...kind of thing. So, getting married was really a blind spot that I brought into the marriage because that is what I had seen all of my life. So, thankfully, I have a very...like you said, my husband grew up at Hope. So, he very strongly walks by the Heart Attitudes. So, it was just not an option that I wasn’t going to follow my husband. He kind of laid it out like, ‘This is how we’re going to operate, and I’m your husband. And, I care about you and want the best for you, but I’m also the leader of our household.’ So, early on he established that, and early on, I was like, ‘Okay, well, this is what we’re going to do.’ It’s been great. It’s brought nothing but blessing. While I do have my inclination and my pride of what to do and how to figure things out my own way, it’s always a good reminder that I need to run this by my husband. I need to see what he would like me to do in this situation. That’s been great with our girls because I can definitely see. They say that when you have kids you see the things that you struggle with most in your kids. That’s something that I’ve seen in my oldest daughter—my desire to do things independently. She has a desire to do things independently. The opportunity to follow Daddy and explain to her, ‘Mommy is doing this because Daddy asked her to do this.’ Or, ‘Mommy needs to do this first because Daddy asked me to do it.’ That really helps her to see like, ‘Well, if Mommy asks me to do something, then I need to do that because Mommy’s doing what Daddy’s asked her to do.’ That has been a really helpful tool in parenting to model and exemplify following who your leader is quickly. So then, when I ask her to obey me because I’m her primary leader because I’m here most of the day when Daddy’s at work, she can know ‘Now I need to follow Mommy while Mommy follows Daddy.’ That has been really helpful, especially with the toddler years. We're working on obedience a lot.”


Stefan Beck:  (Brian Cropp: “I’m guessing you’ve worked for people that haven’t been a part of the Heart Attitudes culture, so as far as following leadership within Scriptural limits in a place that’s not church, what does following leadership look like in those places?”) “Well, I mean the core verse here is Hebrews 13:17: ‘Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy and not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.’ That has been one of those life verses that has followed me through work where I realized that it doesn’t say, ‘If your boss is a Christian, if he’s nice to you…’ It doesn’t say, ‘If you think you got a fair shake or a great raise on the last performance review…’ It doesn’t say any of that. It says obey them. God put them in place over you. I think that was hard for me, like you’re saying. A lot of those bosses...some of them...I had bosses who really did adhere to some good, ethical values, but I’ve had several where it was a real challenge. But, that’s not an excuse. There’s no clarification in the verse that says, ‘No, obey them.” It’s pretty clear about that, so I think there’s some context there. You’re not going to obey them if they’re telling you to do something wrong. I had a boss that wanted me to benefit him financially by misrepresenting some numbers, and I had to tell him that I can’t do that. That’s something that I actually won’t participate in, and that was one of those few exceptions where I realized, ‘Oh, no, this isn’t within Scriptural limits.’ It’s that part where my boss is actually instructing me to do something contrary to Biblical values, and I need to really have the integrity to tell him but not to just defy him. That would not have gone well. I wanted to really try and help him, and those were really some hard conversations. But, I think navigating them successfully has been very valuable. I’ve been able to maintain a friendship with him, even though I don’t work for him anymore. Because, we were able to interact on a respectful basis even though he had different values than me.”


Caitlin Beck:  “Early on, we had some difficult conversations when I would not want to clear up or discuss a problem. So, it was helpful in him obviously leading in our relationship for him to be like, ‘This is really what the Bible says, and this is how I’m choosing to live my life by clearing up relationships and living openly and honestly. This is what I’m expecting us to have to communicate this way and not push things aside.’ So, it was helpful to knock me down a couple of pegs of pride because that was the first time I really had to follow his leadership. It happened early on in our relationship. We did long distance for almost two years.” (Brian Cropp: “Wow…”) “So, we could not...I could just end the call, and we wouldn’t see each other. That wasn’t really going to be helpful in our relationship, so he knew that. It took me awhile to realize that. I’m really, really grateful for him choosing to lead that way and step up and encourage me to also live that way.”


Kurt & Lydia Laughbaum:  “There have been a lot of times where I have wanted to take control of a situation with parenting/mothering. Kurt will help guide me to realize that stuff’s not what I need to be doing. I need to let them fail or experience on their own. It just goes against who I am or what I would do usually, but it’s always worked out for the best. The times I didn’t follow Kurt it would come out as a disaster. But the times I followed his leadership, then everything would work out somehow.” (Video ends.)


Pastor Matt:  So, what does it look like practically to follow spiritual leadership within Scriptural limits? I want to share several thoughts with you about what this Heart Attitude looks like here at Hope Church. First, we have imperfect leaders at every level in the organization. Why? Because we are all imperfect, fallen, sinful creatures, who if you’re a follower of Jesus, have been saved by grace alone. So, we have imperfect leaders at every layer and every level of the organization. And, that starts with me as the lead pastor. I am an imperfect leader. 


If you’re looking for a perfect pastor, then I’m not your guy. And, Hope may not be the church for you. At some point, if it hasn’t already happened in the last 168 days, I’m going to disappoint you. I’m not going to do something that you would have wished that I would do. It’s just going to happen, because I’m an imperfect leader. If you are looking for a pastor who loves Jesus, who’s trying his best to follow Him, to walk with Him daily, and lead a church in a God-honoring way to invite people to discover and experience God’s ways, then I might be your guy. Hope might be your church. So, the first thing is just acknowledging that we have imperfect leaders at every level in the organization. 


The next thing is that spiritual leaders operate under authority and are accountable. That also starts with me as the lead pastor. Ultimately, I report to God for the way that I conduct my life and the way that I am leading here in the church. But, I also have a human Board of Directors that I report to, as well. I have some jurisdictions and some realms. There are decisions that I can make on my own within the authority that I have been given, but there are also decisions that I can’t make by myself. I need the advice or consent of the board, or maybe it requires a majority vote of the board to make certain decisions. So, leaders operate under authority and are accountable. That also starts with me.


Here at Hope, leadership goes to the Godly, gifted, and proven. I want you to know this particularly if you’re newer around Hope Church. We take leadership seriously here. All of the leaders that we have in the organization, again, are imperfect, but they have been trained. They have been equipped. They have proven themselves that they are ready for the challenge to lead at the level that they are leading. Sometimes this is a difficult thing for people who are newer around Hope Church, that maybe come from more of a churched background or who maybe led in a role at a previous church. People show up to Hope, and after the very first Sunday, they say, “Hey! I’m here! I’m ready to lead a group. I’m ready to lead a team. I’m ready to start doing sermons on Sunday morning.” That’s just not the way things work here at Hope.


Here at Hope, we have a test. We’ve had a test, a simple test, for the last 42 years. How do we look for and identify leaders? How do we know if they’re ready? The test looks like this. Over time, have they consistently demonstrated some things? Have they consistently demonstrated humility? A servant’s heart? Faithfulness in carrying out responsibilities, especially the small responsibilities? One that seems not very significant and maybe like, “Nobody’s watching...” How do they handle those responsibilities? Do they have adequate character for the role that they are going to be leading in? Do they have good judgment? Are they able to lead? Do they have leadership ability? Then, one more test is “Is anyone following them?” If no one is following you, maybe you’re not yet ready to be a leader. So, this is a test that we use. 


Here at Hope Church, we see that leadership goes to the Godly, gifted, and proven. Also at Hope Church, we see our leaders as pacesetters. What’s a pacesetter? A pacesetter is one that is out in front of the pack that is setting the pace that you want to be working toward. Leaders here at Hope...we see them as pacesetters. To be a leader, you need to be a pacesetter. You need to be living the life of a Christ-follower, a life someone else could imitate. We also encourage our members to read and study the Bible. In order to follow spiritual leadership within Scriptural limits, we need to actually know what the Bible says. What are the Scriptural limits?


I want to be the first to tell you that just listening to a sermon one day a week is not enough. You need to get into the Bible yourself daily. You need to read and study God’s Word and soak it in and meditate on it. Over time, you're going to have a better understanding of who God is and how He operates and what He expects from us as followers. Then, what are the limits on spiritual leadership? You’ll be able to identify if it doesn’t square with Scripture. If you don’t identify with what Scripture says, then you don't know, and you could be deceived by a leader who is operating out of limits. Here at Hope, we encourage people to read and study God’s Word on their own. 


Finally, here at Hope, we choose to follow spiritual leadership within Scriptural limits. Just a s with the other six Heart Attitudes that we’ve already looked at, this is how we actually, really choose to operate. Those who have committed to be a part of Team Hope, to be members here at Hope, this is the bottom line that we all agree upon. We are going to follow spiritual leadership within Scriptural limits. Now depending on your background and your experience, maybe how long you’ve been a Christ-follower or if you’re just exploring faith right now, I want to give you a few ways to practice this Heart Attitude.


A beginner practice would be to intentionally choose to not argue or complain or gossip when a leader over you makes a decision that you disagree with. I mean, maybe think about a work scenario or a sporting team scenario that you’ve been in in the past. The leader, the team leader, the boss, whoever it is, makes a decision, and you just don’t agree with it. The thing that comes naturally inside of us is to argue or complain or maybe gossip about it afterwards. Just choose to intentionally not do that. That's a great beginner step.


An intermediate step would be to ask appropriate questions but be easily persuaded by your leaders. If your leader asks you to do something, it’s okay to ask a question to get clarification, but don’t argue with them. Be easily persuaded once they’ve given you the answer to the question. Maybe an advanced step is clear up with a leader or anybody else who was present if you have gossiped or complained about direction or decisions that your leader has made. 


Next week, we’re going to wrap up the True to Real series, and we’re going to take another look at the Heart Attitudes as a whole. We’re going to hear from some more people from Hope about how the Heart Attitudes and their experience of living them and practicing them and having them done to them have helped things move from true to real. Would you bow with me in prayer? 


Father, thank You that You give us the opportunity to follow You. You are the Ultimate Authority in this universe. You’re the One who controls what happens in this world. You establish authority, and You define its jurisdiction. We ask that You would grant us good leaders in our nation, especially with the election coming up this week. Please give parents insight on how to lead their children. Please give husbands insights on how to lead their families in a God-honoring way. Father, please grant those of us who lead in Your church, starting with me as the lead pastor and the rest of our staff and the lay leaders...please give us wisdom and courage to lead in a way that pleases You fully, loves people wisely, and stewards the opportunities we have before us faithfully. I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen.